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October 06, 2007

Comments

FZappa

Paul is right about all of it. For example, if you don't believe the North American Union is really happening, take a look at this, and ask yourself why very few Americans have even heard of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_and_Prosperity_Partnership_of_North_America

Minipundit

They haven't heard of it because it's not actually a NAU but a fairly ordinary and mundane regional forum. They haven't heard of it for the same reason they haven't heard of the OAS or the OSCE or the G8. By the way, I'm a big fan of regional integration and world government, so this reference to a NAU as some great boogeyman kind of rings hollow.

Greg Kuperberg

Even worse, that the Trilateral Commission is a popular target of anti-Semitic conspiracy mongers such as Lyndon LaRouche.

There is a general principle here: When the system is catastrophically wrong, even vermin that crawled out of the woodwork can be right about something.

FZappa

Minipundit,

So you want to see the NAU formed? Is that correct?

FZ

Minipundit

Greg - I don't know if it was you or Eric Kramer that the person we both know was quoting the other day as saying that Lyndon LaRouche is where the two ends of the infinitely long left-right spectrum meet. Whoever it was is exactly right. I don't think Paul has gotten to the excesses of the LaRouche movement (that is, he hasn't gone on air in Iowa accusing Walter Mondale of being a joint agent of the KGB and Pablo Escobar) but he's certainly getting worse. And you're completely right: the great tragedy of the Bush administration is that he's been so epically awful as to prove the nuts right.

FZ - Yes. I can see a multitude of ways in which it would help Canada, the US, and especially Mexico, and very few potential detrimental impacts.

FZappa

Well minipundit, that's good to know.

So, how does it follow that you simultaneously 1) label as "crazy" Ron Paul supporters who believe a group of political and financial elites are planning a North American Union and then 2) admit that you yourself favor the formation of a North American Union?

So this policy is somehow rational and logical enough for you to support it, yet it's crazy to think others might support it enough to plan and implement it?

Minipundit

I support a NAU, yes. But I also know that there is no political support for one in any of the three countries involved and that there's no way it'll be implemented any time soon. I wish there was, but there isn't, and you conspiracy theorists are left arguing that some secret cabal is going to create it behind our backs and fund it by selling the blood of our infants. Which, suffice it to say, is ridiculous.

FZappa

So now we're down to, the NAU, whose formation you support, "won't be implemented any time soon."

How soon is soon? The SPP thing I linked to is two years ago soon.

Minipundit

The SPP thing you linked to is not an NAU, which you would know if you were able to read.

Greg Kuperberg

I've been to Mexico and I see nothing wrong with an NAU either. After all, we already have 50 states; what would be the problem with another 20 or 30?

I guess that makes me one of the Illuminati.

Greg Kuperberg

I don't know if it was you or Eric Kramer that the person we both know was quoting the other day as saying that Lyndon LaRouche is where the two ends of the infinitely long left-right spectrum meet.

I have the feeling that it was me. The one-point compactification of the real numbers is one of the wonderful clever little ideas of mathematics. I'm sure that Eric knew about it too, but I distinctly remember hearing this concept applied to politics from another friend, Alan Glasser.

Although it would be fairer to say that LaRouche crossed the point at infinity and is mostly a good old-fashioned fascist bigot. Only about a fifth of his "ideas" are plausibly leftist.

Another thing that I have realized is that if you close the left-right spectrum to make a circle, a lot of people are somewhere in the filled-in interior. They may be on a shortcut to the disreputable point at infinity. E.g. Geraldo Rivera.

FZappa

Well Greg and Minipundit it's nice to have your opinions on the NAU out in the open. I wish the political, legal, and financial elites who are implementing it as we speak were as honest about the views as you two are.

In that case the plan would never pass, over objections from the people of Mexico, Canada, and the U.S. Which is why they have to lie about it.

Greg Kuperberg

I wish the political, legal, and financial elites who are implementing it as we speak were as honest about the views as you two are.

The reason that the "elites" aren't "honest" is that the real driving force of all of this is your own self-interest, and after that your own sense of fairness. They both lead to conclusions that you have trouble accepting, so there is no way give it all to you honestly. You'd be annoyed no matter what the policy is.

The hard truth is that a lot of prices in this country are a lot lower because of Mexicans who are desperate for work. If prices were higher, most Americans would be poorer and they would be mad for that reason. But then as a matter of conscience, the Mexicans are not going to be treated as indentured servants forever. We're not going to tell them forever that their children don't deserve to be taught to read. Eventually you get sick of feeling guilty and you accept your common future with them, even if they happen to speak Spanish. Or if you just can't accept it, you can call it a big conspiracy, but your accusations won't have the legs of logic.

On the other hand, it is true that outright political union among Canada, the US, and Mexico is an alarmist fantasy. But that's partly because the continent doesn't need it. All of the "bad" things that would come of it will happen anyway, just maybe not as quickly.

mike3k

I'd love to see the US become more like Canada. After several trips to Vancouver this year, the thought of living there is becoming more appealing all the time.

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